bringthewood wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:25 pm
I've watched them both and many other explanations along the like. Most explanations along the like are about what faith is NOT like. Gillette is just saying he respects someone who is on the opposite side and not crossing his boundaries.
I'm no missionary, just barely a Christian. I can't tell you what your faith will be like, only what mine is.
When it comes to salvation, it is simple. God has a gift in his open hand reaching out to you and you can accept it or reject it. Nothing else. This is the free will of God's plan for you. He is a loving Father with a no frills gift, and you can take it or reject it; the choice is yours.
There is huge difference between 'the church' and 'your faith'. The church is an institution. Your faith is the relationship you have with God.
There is not more pure and beautiful thing than faith. You aren't coerced into it, you aren't forced into it; you simply step in and choose it. You don't need a priest, pastor, or preacher. You don't need a building, pew, or alter. You don't need a Bible, catechism, or brochure. You only need 2 things:
1- Repent of your sins
2 - Accept God's son Jesus' life and death as your Lord and Savior
I can't talk you into it; I can't talk you out of it. You have to choose or reject it. Which ever way you fall, the Gift is always there.
BringTheWoody (sorry couldn't help myself), I'm afraid it just is not that simple for me. Are you familiar with Pascal's Wager?
As you know Blaise Pascal was the father of computing machines and a brilliant mathematician. He was so inclined to use math and logic that he used a form of game theory to apply to the subject of believing in God and an enternal life.
The wager uses the following logic (excerpts from Pensées, part III, §233):
1) God is, or God is not. Reason cannot decide between the two alternatives
2) A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up
3) You must wager (it is not optional)
4) Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two
chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing
5) Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. (...) There is here an infinity of an infinitely
happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what
you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force when there is the finite to
stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.
6) But some cannot believe. They should then 'at least learn your inability to believe...' and
'Endeavour then to convince' themselves.
Pascal asks the reader to analyze humankind's position, where our actions can be enormously consequential, but our understanding of those consequences is flawed. While we can discern a great deal through reason, we are ultimately forced to gamble. Pascal cites a number of distinct areas of uncertainty in human life. To sum up Pascal's Wager is as simple as saying, "What have you got to lose vs. what have you got to gain.
Pascal writes out some game theory tables using mathematical concepts such as ZERO (wormfood), -infinity (Hell), and +infinity (Eternal life in Heaven.)
Some critics argue that Pascal's wager, for those who cannot believe, suggests feigning belief to gain eternal reward. This would be dishonest and immoral. In addition, it is absurd to think that God, being just and omniscient, would not see through this deceptive strategy on the part of the "believer", thus nullifying the benefits of the wager.
I believe that I must fall under the 6th bullet point. I consider myself one born unable to believe. Why do I say this?
From another source:
"That is why those to whom God has given religious faith by moving their hearts are very fortunate, and feel quite legitimately convinced, but to those who do not have it we can only give such faith through reasoning, until God gives it by moving their heart, without which faith is only human and useless for salvation."
I spend the first 6 or 7 years of my life attending Holy Communion Lutheran Church on Reidville Rd. across from Kensington Drive in the neighborhood of Woodland Heights. After my parents stopped attending church I continued on with the youth group there at the church for another 2-3 years. When I reached what Catholic's would call the age of reason, I was old enough to be confirmed which I was. Took many classes and sat in the pastor's office for private conversations about my confirmation. When it was all said and done, instead of approaching the area behind the podium and kneeling (there's that word again) and having the pastor place is hand on my head and explain that Christ loves me and forgives me my sins, I was actually given an ornate shot glass of red wine (not grape juice) and a pinch of fresh baked bread (not a wafer). Us Lutheran's rolled like that yo?
Other than the nostalgic memories and friends and fellowship I gained from the experience I can say I never felt any spirit of Christ moving through me.
After I stopped attending the church I was invited to several more churches through the years. Mostly as a guest with Chuck. Evangel Cathedral, Abner Creek, Rock Hill babtist church, a small church behind Matress Max towards Greer, Anderson Mill Baptist Church, 1st Baptist church in downtown Spartanburg, Northside church west of Hearon Circle, my wife and I even enrolled at the Episcopal Church in Westgate with our toddler son....
At each one of these services they asked the standard question...
"Is there anyone here who does not know Christ, please come forward."
Every single time I decided I had nothing to loses and everything to gain so I bravely stood up amidst the congregation and walked to the front joined with half a dozen others like me. The priest, minister, pastor, reverend (I never know what to call them) acknowledges our bravery to not hide or duck but to bare our souls in front of hundreds.
They ask us to raise our hand and or bow our heads in prayer and repeat after them. I do as I'm instructed even crossing the fingers of my other hand hoping this will be the one. This will be the moment I'm born again, when I feel the spirit move into my heart/soul/brain. I always walk away with an empty disappointed feeling.
You fellas will no doubt come at this point from many different angles. Don't forget I'm a chess player when it comes to debate. Before I post anything of any weight I consider all the possible replies or retorts that I'll likely face. I like to refer to it as my Cyrano defense. Knowing and or at least guessing what you'll say before you say it
Let's see.....possible genuine heartfelt replies...in multiple choice form. I'll save you the time of typing or composing a lengthy reply and you can just choose yours from a list....
a) You're trying too hard. You're expecting too much of a visceral experience....you've been watching too many televangelists. Christ is more subtle.
b) You've already closed your heart off and are approaching the opportunity with cynicism therefore canceling out and walling yourself off from a spiritual experience.
c) Belief in Christ had already compelled you to go to the church and approach the pastor in the first place....you were already there.
d) You have to play the numbers. It's not your time yet. You're not ready to receive Christ. You're going to give up before the right time comes and you're going to miss out on it. You have to be ready to receive Christ every day, you have to pray that he makes you a believer every day, not just every Sunday, not just every service, not just once or twice a year (As if Jesus is some kind of celestial powerball.)
e) You're still living with sin. You have to cleanse yourself before you can be saved.
f) You have to tear down your sinful life in order to build yourself back up in Christ's image.
g) I'm just too spiritually lazy.
h) I need to let go of my logic and thought and open my mind.
i) I'm too shy, or embarassed to proselytize or share my faith in Christ.
j) I have to experience the sufferring that Jesus did first.
k) I have to fake it till I make it.
l) And this is the most depressing of all....I just have to say I accept Christ as my savior and be a good enough actor that every on earth believes it.
I've been telling a few people lately, I can be honest to you or I can lie and make you feel better. Which do you prefer? Guys like us often choose to take the easy way out and just pretend so that we aren't inundated with those wishing to proselytize.
I'll say this and you can take this to the bank.....
When Chuck killed himself....my faith was still open. The death of our two 15 year old dogs didn't ruin any chance of being born again. The death of my little brother was almost expected. The loss of my job was a chip at my faith because I'd just bought the manager's son his first ever toolbox right before the manager fired me and then ran off the be a preacher. Being chased at gunpoint by a methhead demanding I get my car off his property after having been harassed into drinking his moonshine and subsequently getting also getting my DUI wasn't dealing that many blows (pardon the pun) to my faith.
What broke my openness to God and Christ were the hundreds and hundreds of people I'd grown up with my whole life preaching ad infinitum about Christ and how our country was founded on God acting as though they worshipped Donald Trump, a man I find to be the worst example of a human being I've ever experienced in real life or on TV. My brother Bo was a better man than Donald Trump and Bo has been described by others as a waste of human skin.
I've got a number I'm thinking of. I've decided if that many Trump supporters don't denounce him then I'll have my answer. I've seen preachers on TV's and supporters at rallies say Trump was sent by God. First president I've ever heard of in my lifetime who was sent by God. Again, I've had conversations on this board with people who said God comes first in their life before family or country. I point out that Trump says he has nothing to ask God forgiveness for and I get crickets.
So intellectually I've always fought to find my faith and been patient my whole life and searching. Heard some awesome sermons. Some great discussion groups. Amazing music. If you wish my soul to be saved, go to Amazon or iTunes and order Good News In Hard Times by the Sisters Of Glory. I wore that tape out and had to rebuy the CD version. Give me an Amen when you get it and start listening to it. I'll post as many links on the music thread as I can from it.
To be sure, if Trump gets re-elected....I'm giving myself one way to Heaven's Gate. I'll stay behind after the rapture and do it the hard way. At least there will be an awful lot of free guns and ammunition left behind that southern Christians won't be able to take with them. Thanks ahead for our weapons funding and sorry you can't shoot guns in heaven. Wish me luck!
Your's faithfully
DeCav.
P.S. It hasn't escaped me that I can't be Christian because I'm a Vamp and would instantly incinerate into a pile of ashes and smoke.
“Win as if you were used to it, lose as if you enjoyed it for a change.” ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
